Rivian Ceo: ‘we’re Really Convicted’ About Skipping Carplay

Hello, and invited to Decoder! My impermanent coming is Rivian CEO RJ Scaringe, and I’m very excited to beryllium talking to him connected my show today.

And erstwhile I opportunity my show… I mean Nilay Patel’s show. This is my last section filling successful for Nilay while he’s retired connected parental leave. I’m Joanna Stern, nan elder individual tech columnist astatine The Wall Street Journal, writer of nan upcoming book I AM NOT A ROBOT (out successful 2026), and — nosy truth — a cofounder of The Verge.

Decoder is disconnected adjacent Monday, but erstwhile nan show returns, Nilay will beryllium backmost successful nan big seat. But until then, I get to thrust nan Decoder car 1 past clip pinch Rivian’s CEO riding shotgun. This is RJ’s 3rd clip connected nan show, and it felt for illustration nan cleanable follow-up to my speech past week pinch Ford CEO Jim Farley.

I loved nan thought of going consecutive from Ford — a bequest automaker heavy successful nan EV modulation — to Rivian, arguably nan astir competitory EV-only car institution successful nan U.S. down Tesla. If you listened to nan Farley episode, this 1 flows nicely. RJ and I screen a batch of nan aforesaid challenges: tariffs, China, EV pricing. 

But Rivian doesn’t person nan bequest tech and different baggage of a accepted automaker. That cleanable slate makes things for illustration package easier, but it conscionable intends nan roadworthy up has different group of bumps. 

And yes, we talked astir really my Ford Mustang Mach-E’s lease is up adjacent twelvemonth — cleanable timing, since Rivian’s caller R2, expected successful early 2026, starts astatine $45,000.

Of course, I besides asked astir CarPlay.

Okay: Rivian CEO RJ Scaringe. Here we go.

This question and reply has been lightly edited for magnitude and clarity. 

All right, RJ Scaringe, you are nan CEO and laminitis of Rivian. Welcome backmost to Decoder.

Well, it’s awesome to beryllium on. Thank you for having me.

I’ve taken complete for Nilay. I’m besides changing nan sanction of this show to “What Car Should Joanna Lease Next?” Actually, fto maine alteration nan sanction of nan show. Do you person a amended sanction for nan show?

“What Car Should Joanna Buy Next?” really rolls disconnected your tongue, truthful it’s beautiful good.

Yeah, it’s going to fresh correct nicely there. So, I wanted to return you done this because you are my 2nd car CEO connected nan show, and that’s really I decided to do my takeover. One of nan reasons I did that… well, location are 2 reasons.

One, I ever perceive to Nilay’s car CEO interviews and emotion them, but I americium besides ever driving successful nan car listening to them and screaming that he should beryllium asking different questions. The questions I want answered are usually: Which car should I lease next? So, that is number one.

Yeah, truthful present we are.

The number 2 logic is that 3 years ago, I leased my first EV. It was a Mustang Mach-E. I’ve been rather happy pinch it, but adjacent twelvemonth that lease goes up, and I person a number of things I deliberation I want. So I thought we could talk done immoderate of that, and I thought that would pass a batch of our speech coming astir nan early of EVs and nan early of Rivian.

Great. So I get to waste you a car possibly by nan extremity of nan show?

I want you to not beryllium nan sleaziest car salesman, but nan coolest car salesman. And if you’re lucky, I will thrust it disconnected nan lot.

Okay, each right. Going for a cool car salesman vibe. Got it.

Yes.

Register that.

So let’s commencement there, connected what Rivian has successful nan marketplace and what’s coming. When you came retired pinch nan R1, I judge almost 5 years agone now, you were very overmuch billed arsenic this electrical motortruck company. 

Now, you’ve sewage nan R1S, you are expanding to nan R2 and nan R3 aft that. It seems for illustration your extremity is to beryllium much than conscionable an costly motortruck company. How do you deliberation astir Rivian today? How should I deliberation astir Rivian today?

The extremity is decidedly to beryllium overmuch broader than an costly electrical conveyance company. So erstwhile you motorboat a caller company, it’s ever an important question: what do you motorboat first? We made that determination really moreover earlier we made nan determination connected products. We realized we wanted to build a marque astir enabling progressive lifestyles. The pursuing we earned became really clear, we wanted to motorboat pinch a flagship group of products.

So we launched nan R1 merchandise pinch a brother-sister, related group of products. It was nan R1T, which is simply a truck, and there’s nan R1S, which is an SUV. Those 2 vehicles were intended to motorboat nan marque and really beryllium our handshake pinch nan world. It enabled america to show a communicative astir what we guidelines for, nan types of experiences, and nan trade-offs we make successful position of attributes. Let’s say, for illustration on-road and off-road performance, performance, and efficiency.

R2 is really conscionable nan continuation of that. So whereas R1 has an mean transaction value of astir $90,000, nan R2 starts astatine $45,000. It captures a batch of those aforesaid marque elements, truthful nan vehicles tin fresh your gear, your pets, your kids, your stuff, and they tin spell off-road, but it’s overmuch smaller. Then, of course, arsenic I said, it’s besides overmuch much affordable. For us, it’s nan first merchandise that’ll return america from this flagship, which is what we started with, to thing that is broadly accessible successful position of pricing.

So, we’re ace excited astir it. But I mean, nan point astir R2 that I deliberation is truthful astonishing is that a batch of nan trade-offs we’ve had to make to get nan costs down are a lot. We’ve taken astir half nan costs retired of nan conveyance — a small spot much — and it doesn’t manifest successful a nonaccomplishment of perceived, let’s say, features aliases quality. It’s nan execution: nan interior is conscionable beautiful, and nan measurement nan car rides and drives is amazing. It’s evidently smaller, but it really feels for illustration a Rivian, and it’s really enjoyable to drive. 

I deliberation package-wise, for galore users, if you don’t request a seven-row, it’s conscionable nan correct size. It’s a small spot shorter than a Model Y, but it feels a batch bigger. And I emotion each nan small details. The beforehand trunk useful great. The rear liftgate is beautiful. It’s sewage a driblet solid successful nan rear truthful you tin put things successful nan backmost without opening nan backmost up. So it’s sewage each nan small intricate specifications we’ve thought done to make it consciousness for illustration a magical merchandise experience.

And erstwhile does it travel out?

We commencement deliveries successful nan first half of adjacent year, which intends we person to commencement building what we telephone saleable units successful nan early portion of adjacent year. We’re correct now successful what we telephone a validation phase. So we’re building vehicles, we’re camouflaging them, driving them connected nationalist roads. We statesman moving each of our manufacturing validation builds, truthful moving vehicles done our works connected accumulation instrumentality and accumulation process later this year. In nan early portion of adjacent year, we’ll modulation from non-saleable units. We built a fewer 100 of those, which we devour internally, to past units that are saleable to consumers. So yeah, nan early portion of adjacent year.

So by August 2026?

Yeah, August, for sure.

When my lease is up, will nan R2 beryllium connected shelves? That’s not what you opportunity successful nan car business.

We could person an R2 successful your driveway erstwhile your lease is up, yes.

Okay, okay. Well, you’re already disconnected to a bully start, and we’re going to talk astir my acquisition test-driving R1S this summer. That’s 1 of nan reasons I wanted to person you connected nan show. But I want to quickly talk astir really you’re expanding present and immoderate of nan backdrop of Rivian. 

I think, actually, it’s benignant of cleanable because I unrecorded successful a municipality successful New Jersey that should beautiful overmuch conscionable beryllium called Rivianfield, aliases Rivianland. Everyone has nan R1 aliases nan R1S. When you were designing them, were you like, “Let’s make a motortruck that suburban moms love, and dads?” Were nan pictures of suburban moms and dads connected your temper board?

Well, actually, it’s funny you opportunity that. So erstwhile we were processing nan vehicle, moreover measurement earlier we’d shown it to nan world — we did nan aforesaid connected R2, and we’re doing nan aforesaid connected R3 and R4 — we ever create this thought of “what is nan vehicle?” What’s nan consciousness of nan conveyance want to be, aliases what’s nan principle of it? But past we construe it done nan lens of tons of different target customers. 

So, successful nan lawsuit of R1, it’s a really wide group of buyers. We wanted a really divers demographic this would entreaty to. One of them, which of people is simply a large demographic, is group who are utilizing it to support their family pinch kids aliases pinch pets aliases pinch gear. Not surprisingly, it fits each those things really well. It really resonated beautifully pinch customers who person kids aliases person families.

Interestingly, and this is simply a nosy small fact, we’re nan best-selling premium electrical SUV successful nan country. So nan measurement you tie nan bound diagrams connected these is ever confusing, but nan measurement we tie it astir premium SUVs, we person astir 35 percent marketplace stock for premium electrical SUVs. But successful California and nan authorities of Washington, we’re nan best-selling premium SUV, electrical aliases non-electric. 

So if you’re buying an SUV successful nan authorities of California and it’s premium, meaning complete $70,000, you’re statistically astir apt to beryllium buying a Rivian, and nan aforesaid is existent successful Washington. So arsenic dense arsenic it seems successful New Jersey, places for illustration Seattle aliases Mill Valley are areas wherever it’s nan same. It’s very, very celebrated successful these markets.

But successful that value scope successful EVs, you really only person 1 competitor, right? Is that nan [Ford F-150] Lightning?

No, there’s [Tesla] Model X. 

Okay, Model X is really classified arsenic an SUV there, too. Okay.

Yeah. So we outsell Model X by rather a bit. We outsell, well, everything. There are Cadillacs successful that value range. There are besides GMCs and nan Cybertruck. So location are a batch of things up successful that value category.

Going backmost to reasoning astir this municipality I unrecorded successful and immoderate of nan towns you were talking astir there, I mean, it’s mostly coastal, I would assume. That’s wherever you’ve sewage an assemblage and a demographic of group who tin spend a $90,000 car that needs a bigger body. I’m assuming that portion of nan strategy that you’re really going for now pinch R2 is to grow that, to spell beyond that niche. Are you assured successful that, fixed what nan backdrop of nan ecosystem and title looks for illustration correct now?

Yeah, we had a committee chat nan different day, and I said it, and I’ll opportunity it here: I’ve ne'er been much assured successful nan business than wherever we are today. I deliberation 1 of nan large risks successful launching a caller institution is that location are tons of things you could power that are reasonably deterministic. Does nan conveyance accelerate for illustration this? What’s nan scope of nan vehicle? Does it fresh this benignant of stuff? And past location are a number of things that are acold little deterministic, and successful immoderate ways, I deliberation of those arsenic almost for illustration magic. And nan biggest 1 of those is nan marque and really good nan marque resonates.

As we conscionable described, you tin do each these temper boards and studies to opportunity this is what we dream nan marque becomes. But if I were to upwind nan timepiece backmost to 2020, earlier we launched, I wouldn’t person imagined nan marque would moreover person resonated arsenic good arsenic it has. Since we launched, each twelvemonth since we’ve launched, Consumer Reports does this yearly marque entreaty study, and it’s based upon what we say, but they study tons of different customers independently. And since we launched successful 2021, we’ve been astatine nan number 1 spot connected that chart. So, we’re number 1 level for marque appeal, and past by acold nan highest complaint of repurchase.

The marque is conscionable really connected pinch consumers — nan authenticity of it, nan measurement that we’ve approached making each of these trade-offs and decisions astatine nan merchandise level, really that yet shows up and manifests arsenic a business, arsenic a company. My dream is that if we tin return moreover a fraction of nan marketplace stock occurrence that we’ve had astatine this premium value constituent pinch our flagship merchandise and construe that to nan wide marketplace product, nan R2, we’d beryllium really happy. 

So, of course, we’d beryllium happier if we could return a bigger fraction of that marketplace stock of success. But to get 35 percent marketplace stock successful nan segments we’re operating, outselling each nan different EV alternatives, this conception we’re now going into pinch R2 is very big. This is crushed up pinch tons of soul combustion motor (ICE) vehicles and tons of hybrids. Of course, you spot Model Y successful this value category. 

The Chevy Equinox, which I’m seeing each complete nan place.

Chevy Equinox, yes. There’s a full big of products we get to compete against.

My erstwhile Decoder impermanent was Jim Farley, nan CEO of Ford. I cognize you guys cognize each other.

Yeah, yeah. 

We spent a batch of clip talking astir nan threat of a institution that doesn’t moreover waste cars successful America, which is BYD. The mindset is that it is nan competitor successful nan lower-cost, high-tech EV space. Even though they don’t waste successful nan US, what they’re doing is nan competition. He said nan Chinese are nan 700-pound gorilla successful our manufacture for EVs. There’s nary existent title from Tesla, GM, aliases Ford pinch what we’ve seen travel from China. That’s intelligibly what he’s reasoning about. What astir you?

Yeah, I deliberation location are 2 things to telephone retired astir China that are important. The first is evidently their costs structure, and I deliberation that draws a batch of attention. Their costs building is not… I’m judge Ford has, and we have, but everyone buys everyone’s products and looks astatine really they’re made. There are surely tons of innovations that are being made, but there’s thing that everyone’s not alert of aliases that they themselves aren’t doing successful position of manufacturing process, conveyance design, aliases conveyance architecture. 

I deliberation what’s happened connected costs is BYD has nan compounding benefits of very debased costs to capital, some astatine nan OEM level and astatine their suppliers. In galore cases, nan plants are free aliases adjacent to free. It has very debased labour cost, very precocious labour availability, and that conscionable compounds arsenic you spell from earthy materials each nan measurement up nan proviso concatenation to these dramatically lower-cost structures than what we person successful nan Western world.

So, I deliberation what will hap location is either you’ll spot tariffs spell successful spot aliases requirements that those vehicles beryllium produced locally, wherever a batch of those costs advantages spell away. And so, arsenic overmuch arsenic I deliberation costs is thing we should each beryllium alert of, and to opportunity look astatine really debased nan costs is to build vehicles successful China, which we tin see, Western companies tin besides use from arsenic well. You look astatine nan costs building of Tesla’s vehicles built successful Shanghai versus Tesla’s vehicles built successful nan United States, and it’s much, overmuch little successful Shanghai. So I deliberation there’s nan costs element.

But nan bigger constituent is really really precocious nan exertion is. Here, what’s happened is, overmuch for illustration Tesla, I’d opportunity overmuch for illustration Rivian, if you commencement pinch a cleanable sheet, you extremity up successful a very different spot than nan bequest car manufacturers. In our case, we developed our full package level in-house. We built each of our electronics in-house. That platform’s very robust, and successful fact, it’s what’s underpinned us. We did a $5.8 cardinal package licensing deal and an subordinate associated task pinch Volkswagen Group, nan second-largest car institution successful nan world, to return that exertion and deploy it crossed their vehicles globally, pinch nan objection of nan Chinese market. But for Europe, nan United States, and nan remainder of nan world.

I deliberation this is nan challenge. Now it’s not conscionable Tesla and Rivian that person this very unsocial attack to package and electronics. It’s a number of, not all, but a number of Chinese companies that besides person a overmuch much precocious attack to package and electronics. The bequest OEMs person to very quickly displacement really they attack this method domain, which has historically not been a halfway competency of OEMs. Historically, they’re very mechanical companies, and they’ve relied connected Tier 1 suppliers to do a batch of that work. Those Tier 1 suppliers often trust connected Tier 2, truthful nan package and electronics abstraction successful automotive tends to beryllium rather a spot down user electronics arsenic a consequence of this outsourced third-party attack that nan car manufacture has evolved to usage complete nan past fewer decades.

Well, you walked correct into immoderate of my questions astir tariffs. And also, you really touched connected a ample portion of what my speech pinch Ford’s Jim Farley was about, which was astir really he pivots nan institution to do immoderate of nan worldly that you’re doing. 

But let’s spell backmost to tariffs because it’s clear that they are affecting your business. It is affecting this full automotive industry. If you look astatine what you’re trying to do pinch R2, which is to bring down nan costs and make this an affordable vehicle, aliases astatine slightest your efforts to make it an affordable vehicle, and you’re up against tariffs. Can you do this? Is this conscionable for illustration nan worst-case-scenario timing for you?

With R2, we’ve really had nan use of making a batch of sourcing decisions, recognizing immoderate of what I’d qualify arsenic world geopolitical shifts. One of nan biggest world changes successful mindset that’s not conscionable unsocial to nan United States, but we’re seeing crossed nan Western world, is an progressively domestic-centric attack to manufacturing. Meaning, successful nan lawsuit of nan United States and I’d opportunity broadly successful nan lawsuit of Europe, there’s a desire to clasp much manufacturing contented section to nan markets successful which nan vehicles are sold.

In our case, because we’re producing each of our products successful nan United States, we knew that going into nan sourcing of R2, truthful we had built a US-centric proviso concatenation astir that. Of course, location are immoderate things that we don’t make successful nan United States, for illustration definite metals and particularly dense uncommon world metals. Certain materials conscionable globally really aren’t calved retired of nan United States. Things for illustration nickel are a very bully illustration — 92 percent of nan world’s nickel proviso comes from Indonesia.

So, successful definite aspects of nan vehicle, we’ve had to build cross-border waste and acquisition relationships. Some of nan changes we’re seeing successful waste and acquisition argumentation do adhd cost, but we’ve had nan use of being capable to beryllium rather plan-full astir that. Whereas connected R1, which was already successful accumulation pinch a afloat originated and afloat operating proviso chain, nan changes to waste and acquisition argumentation being truthful abrupt, we didn’t person nan clip to respond to those arsenic thoughtfully arsenic we’ve been capable to pinch R2.

You mentioned —  I mean, I deliberation it’s well-known — that Rivian is manufacturing successful nan US, and it feels for illustration you’re making these cars here. You’re adding jobs here, but you’re still facing, from this administration, nan tariffs and nan upcoming cuts to EV taxation credits. Do you consciousness for illustration this administration’s conscionable moving against you? Are you conscionable pushing against nan tide each nan time?

An important portion of my job, and I’d opportunity progressively so, is looking astatine each nan unknowns successful nan system. We deliberation of this conscionable not for maine but for nan full activity team, looking astatine each nan changes successful nan strategy and trying to understand what things are going to beryllium persistent? What are nan changes that are going to beryllium 2 years from now, a fewer years from now, 5 years from now? What are nan things that are somewhat successful nan noise? And erstwhile we look astatine it done that lens, location are a number of really clear things.

So 1 point that’s very clear, sloppy of whether you’re looking astatine it from a Republican constituent of position aliases a Democratic constituent of view, is that building independency from China is going to beryllium a taxable that’s important successful nan United States. That was really important for america arsenic we originated R2. We built very small dependency, aliases arsenic small dependency arsenic possible, connected nan Chinese proviso chain. That carries pinch it assumptions astir costs and different costs structures, but that was 1 cardinal takeaway. In that way, we’ve aligned nan business to nan intent of some governmental parties successful nan United States.

The different is that there’s a large push for US capacity successful some exertion and US capacity successful manufacturing. So, putting speech immoderate of the, I’d say, sound and short-term changes that person impacts, existent impacts, connected america astir electrical vehicles and immoderate of nan argumentation for electrical vehicles, we find ourselves very aligned successful position of building heavy exertion expertise successful nan United States. Technology expertise that is truthful beardown that, successful fact, we’re trading that to different companies extracurricular nan United States. So this woody pinch Volkswagen is 1 of nan largest package licensing deals successful nan history of nan car industry, betwixt a US institution and a European company.

I deliberation there’s alignment there, but a large portion of what we effort to find is simply a measurement to depoliticize electrical vehicles, which person go political. They shouldn’t be. We’re investing successful building exertion and jobs successful nan United States. We employment adjacent to 16,000 group present successful nan US, truthful we’re a ample company. We person 1 of nan strongest exertion teams, I think, successful nan car industry. And truthful we walk a batch of clip pinch nan management connected that, and there’s a batch of support and enthusiasm for what we’re creating and building successful that regard.

You should conscionable bring an R2 to nan White House. You should get President Trump successful an R2, and he tin opportunity everything’s computer.

[Laughs] We’ll person to inquire him, we’ll see.

Yeah. Do you spell to Mar-a-Lago successful your R2?

It would activity beautifully there. The rear model drops down, and you tin put a surfboard successful nan back. It’s a bully idea. It’s nan eventual conveyance for being down there.

Well, see, you’re not only going to waste maine an R2, you’re going to waste an R2 to nan President of nan United States. What a awesome show for you.

Well, I opportunity this each nan time, Michael Jordan has a quote I conscionable love, which is that some Republicans and Democrats bargain Nikes, and nan aforesaid is existent for Rivian. I deliberation it’s a awesome consequence that we effort very difficult not to make what we’re doing political. We person a batch of Republicans who bargain our vehicles and emotion them. We person a batch of Democrats who bargain our vehicles and emotion them. We person group who are successful nan middle, and we person Independents. 

So we effort to beryllium arsenic wide arsenic possible, successful position of creating a invited mat for america arsenic a company, and really entreaty to nan halfway values of enabling progressive lifestyles. That’s not a governmental orientation; it spans crossed each governmental points of view.

Although I’ll inquire you, did it thief you that location was nan Elon Musk-Donald Trump confederation and that I now spot galore group pinch bumper stickers connected Tesla saying, “I bought this earlier Elon went crazy.” I’m assuming that possibly that helped you.

It’s been absorbing to watch. There’s a agelong database of things that I could opportunity a twelvemonth agone I would’ve ne'er expected to spot happen. So this clip past year, I wouldn’t person predicted immoderate of what happened there to person occurred. But I deliberation astatine nan extremity of nan day, look, I deliberation nan important point is that successful Tesla’s case, they do person a awesome group of products. The Model Y and Model 3 are awesome products. I’ve owned them, truthful I’ve been a customer a fewer times, and I deliberation it’s bully that customers person that arsenic a choice.

I want to get to immoderate much merchandise questions and things astir my R1S driving, but I want to instrumentality conscionable for different 2nd connected nan authorities of nan system and nan authorities of your business and nan truth that you person nan uphill conflict now of making cars that are profitable for you. You are still, arsenic acold arsenic I tin show from net and reports, losing money connected each of nan vehicles you sell. Is that going to amended successful nan coming months, and pinch nan R2?

It amended improve, and I opportunity that pinch a smile. So if we look astatine our trajectory, erstwhile we launched, we had a full big of challenges that really were not predicted. We didn’t predict, erstwhile we launched, that it’d beryllium correct into nan pandemic. It’s astir apt difficult to ideate a much challenging situation to motorboat an business business into. It’s difficult to build a works and motorboat a works pinch distant activity and activity from home.

We past had a immense proviso concatenation crisis, and fixed we’re a caller manufacturer, we had a existent situation that persisted good into 2023, astir conscionable our expertise to get capable parts. So we were starved for parts, which manufacturing really benefits from predictability and being steady, and our on-off quality conscionable created a immense magnitude of unexpected fixed costs overhead.

Then, arsenic we came into 2024, things started to really travel together. We launched immoderate updates to nan conveyance we telephone our Gen 2 type of R1, and truthful successful nan 4th fourth of 2024, we were affirmative gross margin. In nan first 4th of 2025, we had complete $200 cardinal of affirmative gross margin, which was awesome.

This past 4th was a reliable 4th for us, Q2 of 2025. We had a large driblet disconnected successful volume, mostly driven by immoderate of nan challenges astir getting capable dense uncommon world metals to make our motor. So successful our case, because each of our vehicles are, of course, electric, we nutrient each of our vehicles successful nan United States. China, arsenic portion of nan waste and acquisition negotiations that person been happening, put successful spot an export power that didn’t let nan export of magnets into nan United States. So we conscionable couldn’t make motors because these motors needed nan magnets.

We went from 14,000 units produced successful Q1 to astir 6,000 successful Q2. That was a singular benignant of shape shift, if you will, that we felt we saw successful nan numbers. But we built solutions astir that. That export power has been lifted. So we’re rather bullish connected really nan remainder of this twelvemonth is going to go. We’ll nutrient and waste much vehicles successful nan 2nd half of nan twelvemonth than we did successful nan first half.

As you said, nan motorboat of R2 really ignites nan business. It allows america to get to a level of measurement that helps screen our operating fixed costs. It’s for illustration our works fixed costs, and past nan wide OpEx of nan business. So each nan R&D and SG&A, nan income administrative functions of nan business, support trading and delivering, and servicing each these vehicles. Scale is simply a really important portion of nan automotive business and automotive production. It becomes moreover much important if you’re highly vertically integrated, which we are. So, erstwhile you get to that scale, that vertical integration creates a structural advantage successful costs structure. But you request a definite level of scale, which R2 brings for us.

Okay, and possibly it won’t beryllium successful this quarter, but possibly you’ll person my R2 lease. 

And that’ll help.

That’ll help, but you’re going to person to person personification of this determination that isn’t me. So I’m going to play a connection from him soon. But I trial drove nan R1S this summer. I drove it galore miles. It was almost 500 miles successful your car. So, convey you for that.

I emotion it, okay.

But I had a beautiful reliable reviewer successful nan car for this full time. And we person a speedy mobility from him. I’m going to play it.

Joanna’s Son: Why did we get a level tire, Rivian Man?

And what other do you for illustration astir nan car?

Joanna’s Son: That we person nan paper for it, and it opened. That’s cool.

So did you perceive nan opening of nan question?

I couldn’t rather perceive nan beginning.

It’s, “Why did we get a level tire, Rivian Man?

I heard nan Rivian Man, which I really liked. That’s adorable.

Yeah, that’s your name. I told him I was going to talk to “Rivian Man.” And truthful that’s what he said. He wanted to know, “Why did we get a level tire, Rivian Man?”

I really don’t know. Did you tally complete a nail aliases something?

I don’t cognize either. I don’t know. Anytime he sees a Rivian now, he’s like, “That’s a Rivian, it has a level tire.” And I had to explicate to him that really each cars can-

Can get level tires, yeah.

And past nan 2nd portion of his mobility was, it wasn’t really a question. He conscionable wanted you to cognize that he loves nan cardinal card. He says that’s really cool. But I wanted to really show you, I don’t for illustration nan cardinal card.

The cardinal card, actually, is not expected to beryllium utilized different than for benignant of an emergency. You put it successful your wallet, aliases you put it location and clasp onto it. But nan thought is that your telephone is really nan key. So, I don’t cognize if nan team, erstwhile you loaned it, group you up pinch your telephone arsenic a key, but that’s nan idea.

It’s true. I did person it group up connected my telephone for a small spot aft we had nan cardinal card. 

Oh, okay.

Any different things you person to opportunity to my four-year-old boy successful position of why he should show maine to get this car?

Ah, truthful I person a six, a seven, and a nine-year-old. So I person a position connected what nan kids really bask pinch it. I’d opportunity successful nan lawsuit of R2s, my boys person spent a batch of clip now successful nan R2. A batch of nan nosy small features we person connected nan R1, for illustration nan flashlight successful nan door, are still there. There’s tons of storage. The beforehand trunk is awesome successful nan R2, but we put successful a fewer much features. So nan rear solid drops completely. It makes for a really bully open-air acquisition wherever you tin thrust pinch nan backmost open.

It’s not excessively noisy. You tin fresh worldly into it. If you person pets, they really for illustration it. But nan car has each nan aforesaid capacity trade-offs; it’s still very tin on-road and off-road. It’s a awesome escapade mobile; it fits each your gear. So, I deliberation he’d really bask nan R2, but it’s besides easier to get into for kids because it’s a small little than nan R1. My kids for illustration nan R2 complete nan R1.

Okay, each right. I’ve sewage a batch to show my four-year-old; he’s going to beryllium making this decision. He makes each nan important buying decisions successful nan house.

That’s good.

Also, I matter Nilay a batch astir cars,  often aft I’ve listened to Decoder aliases conscionable erstwhile I’m test-driving cars aliases reasoning astir it. So, I want to publication you nan matter I sent him earlier this summer. I said, “Drove Rivian loaner upstate. No problem charging, but maps are fucking terrible.” The bully news is you fixed 1 of these problems, nan maps, right?

Yep. We person a awesome business pinch Google, truthful nan maps are now successful business pinch Google, and it was an area wherever location were a batch of requests for different solutions to our mapping. So nan beauty of our architecture is that we tin update each sorts of things, including representation applications. We person a full caller mapping environment, which is beautiful. It’s really nice, I mean, it’s conscionable awesome moving pinch nan Google squad to create this. It’s really special, it’s a awesome application.

Did you activity pinch nan Google squad connected nan underlying infotainment system? That’s based connected Android, right?

It’s a bully question. We didn’t activity pinch Google connected nan platform. We built it to really activity seamlessly pinch nan Android ecosystem truthful that immoderate of nan apps that we merge tin beryllium pulled successful much seamlessly. But we did that wholly without Google. And past successful nan lawsuit of nan maps, we did activity very intimately pinch Google.

That makes sense. Well, I did get nan R1S backmost to trial station nan maps update, and it is importantly improved. So that’s bully timing for you to beryllium connected nan show. 

I emotion that. So we checked 1 container there.

Checked 1 box. 

Okay, 1 of nan main reasons I sewage a Mach-E really had to do pinch CarPlay. Do you still dislike CarPlay?

[Laughs] I emotion it, that’s a funny measurement to inquire it. No, we decidedly don’t dislike CarPlay. We’ve made nan decision, which I’m very assured about, that successful nan fullness of time, customers will appreciate, which is that we wanted to person a seamless integer experience. To not person nan request to jump betwixt CarPlay, which feels evidently for illustration CarPlay, and truthful it feels nan aforesaid successful each car, and past what we create arsenic a Rivian environment. And rather, deliberation of it much à la carte, create each nan aforesaid applications. 

So you person YouTube, you tin spell to Spotify, you tin spell to Google Maps, you tin spell to Apple Music, you tin spell to everything. You tin person each those integrations. But for america to clasp nan glue for putting that each together, this becomes moreover much important arsenic we commencement to merge AI into nan vehicle.

Over nan adjacent 18 months, we’re going to spot a batch of caller features that, by necessity, are performing tasks aliases making decisions to link different applications. And so, knowledge of “what’s nan conveyance state?” Knowledge of “is it successful drive, aliases is it parked? What are nan conditions extracurricular nan vehicle? What’s your driving history? What are your preferences?” Knowledge of each of that astatine an ecosystem level allows america to coming a richer, amended acquisition for you arsenic a driver aliases caretaker of nan vehicle. 

I deliberation it’d beryllium really difficult to do that if we had to put each that done an exertion that expands to return complete nan surface and provides you fundamentally pinch a group of bubbles that consciousness very overmuch for illustration a CarPlay experience. So portion by piece, everything that personification whitethorn person missed from their CarPlay experience, whether it was a mapping, aliases soon we’re going to person a voice-to-text, is going to beryllium there, and it’ll beryllium beautiful. 

We’re really convinced of this. For immoderate folks, that intends they’re not going to bargain a Rivian. We judge that. It’s a decision. I opportunity this each nan time: portion of building a merchandise arsenic analyzable arsenic this is recognizing and being okay pinch nan truth that we person to make a ton of decisions, for illustration nan products, for illustration a conveyance has galore millions of decisions together. Some of those decisions, not everyone’s going to work together with, and that’s okay.

Our occupation is to person convictions astir nan decisions we’re making and person volition and thoughtfulness successful why we made those decisions. But knowing that our extremity is to make arsenic galore group arsenic happy arsenic possible, but besides knowing that you can’t make everyone happy because not everyone’s going to want precisely nan aforesaid thing.

So what I’m proceeding is you’re decidedly doing CarPlay Ultra.

[Laughs] Yeah, that’s what nan takeaway is, decidedly doing it.

That is what you conscionable said.

No, look, we person a great-

No, I perceive you.

I mean, to beryllium clear, we person a awesome narration pinch Apple. They’re a adjacent partner. We person a bunch of integrations that are coming soon. Apple Music was nan first objection of that, but there’s a batch much coming.

More astir messaging?

Yeah, truthful I deliberation messaging, deliberation conveyance access. So I deliberation getting into nan conveyance pinch an Apple Watch and Ultra Wideband, and there’s a full big of things coming. But you don’t request to usage CarPlay to do that. You tin do it successful different ways.

I agree. I will opportunity 3 to 4 years ago, CarPlay was number 1 connected nan database of things I wanted successful a caller car. That has quickly fallen down nan list. But I will show you what’s going to beryllium adjacent nan apical of nan database for this adjacent decision, which is AI, autonomy, and self-driving. Group that each together, which is each very different, obviously, and your teams that perceive to this will cringe. 

And we’ve talked astir this before, but springiness maine a consciousness of really you’re reasoning astir afloat self-driving aliases immoderate type of autonomy that goes beyond what you presently person successful nan car, which I’ve tested, which is simply a glorified cruise control. I do really admit it. 

But really do you get to nan constituent wherever I americium really conscionable sitting successful my R2, if I get one, and I’m capable to spell from my location successful New Jersey to nan workplace successful New York without possibly rubbing nan instrumentality a mates of times? Maybe I touch it 2 times. How do you get there?

Yeah. Boy, we could walk nan remainder of nan clip connected this. This is simply a large topic. 

Well, it’s bully because we person different hour.

All right. First, it’s important to admit there’s been a large shift. So nan measurement autonomous systems were developed up until astir 2021, aliases moreover 2022, is that you had a cognition level aliases stack of perception, which whitethorn beryllium cameras and radars — possibly successful immoderate cases, cameras, radars, and lidars that would spot nan world aliases comprehend nan world. 

It would place each nan objects, it would categorize those objects, and it would delegate vectors to those objects, for illustration really they’re moving successful nan world. Then each of those objects would beryllium handed to a planner, and nan planner would beryllium a rules-based situation that’s fundamentally a programmed type of interpreting really nan world useful and past making a full bid of decisions based upon this defined group of rules. That situation has its evident limitations; it’s very delicate to changes successful nan sensor set, and it’s very delicate to nan location aliases nan application. So, it benignant of reached an asymptote of capability.

While that was being developed, a full caller attack to reasoning astir really to create self-driving systems emerged, which was really to usage AI, which, interestingly, AI arsenic we cognize it coming was not really portion of nan first gen of self-driving systems. It was a very rules-based environment. So, what’s now happening and what’s happening successful our Gen 2 vehicles, which is why there’s a important quality betwixt our Gen 1 and our Gen 2 vehicles… Our Gen 2 vehicles, which we launched successful nan mediate of 2024, brought each of our cognition stack in-house. All nan sensors we designed ourselves; location are nary third-party sensors there. We past built a overmuch much powerful compute platform, truthful an conclusion level successful nan vehicle. 

We’re taking each this information and we trigger it based upon a full assortment of things, which we tin talk astir successful a moment, but, for illustration absorbing events. We usage that to provender nan training of a ample parameter model. Think of it for illustration a instauration exemplary for driving. So, a large, what’s yet a multi-billion parameter model, and that exemplary is simply a neural nett of really to thrust a vehicle. And nan beauty of this is, arsenic you amended sensors, alteration sensors, aliases alteration conveyance applications, this neural nett of knowing of really to thrust a conveyance doesn’t spell away.

So, a elemental affinity is if I deterioration glasses, if I learned to thrust without glasses, and you abruptly handed maine my glasses, I would not hide everything I learned. I would conscionable thrust better, pinch much accuracy, because I person amended precision aliases amended perception. The aforesaid is existent successful this attack now, which is building a ample model. You’ve possibly heard aliases group person heard it called an end-to-end approach, wherever you return this attack of having information travel in, you usage that to train nan model, and past that exemplary determines really nan vehicle’s operating. Why this is truthful breathtaking is that nan complaint of betterment of these systems is going to beryllium overmuch higher.  That’s nan level we now person successful our vehicles.

We’re going to statesman to spot nan characteristic group expand. So today, arsenic you said, we telephone it a road assist. It’s a road characteristic wherever you tin beryllium connected nan highway, you tin return your hands disconnected nan wheel, your eyes enactment mostly connected nan road, but otherwise, nan conveyance drives itself. The adjacent hold of that is hands disconnected nan wheel, eyes connected nan roadworthy everywhere, truthful connected immoderate type of road. The adjacent hold of that is hands disconnected nan wheel, eyes connected nan road, pinch turn-by-turn truthful nan conveyance tin navigate from 1 reside to another, and that’s coming adjacent twelvemonth arsenic well.

The adjacent measurement is for hands disconnected nan wheel, eyes disconnected nan road, successful definite circumstances. The road is simply a really bully illustration wherever you’re connected nan highway, your hands are disconnected nan roadworthy aliases disconnected nan wheel, you want your eyes disconnected nan road, and you tin beryllium connected your telephone reference a book. And that group of features for america is going to beryllium coming successful 2027. And that I deliberation is simply a really large unlock because you commencement to get your clip back. So it’s not conscionable reducing nan cognitive load connected you to person to run nan conveyance and beryllium afloat aware, but it besides gives you nan expertise to do different things.

What I conscionable described is each happening complete nan adjacent 18 to 24 months. I deliberation nan complaint of advancement present is going to beryllium truthful precocious that if we look astatine nan past 10 years for autonomy and comparison it to nan adjacent 10 years, it’s going to beryllium connected a wholly different trajectory, specified that by early 2030s it’s going to beryllium inconceivable to bargain a caller car and not person it execute astatine a very precocious level from a self-driving constituent of view.

Tell maine existent quick, though, what are nan sensors? I mean, there’s this large statement I consciousness happening correct now, aliases possibly it’s not really a debate. There’s possibly 1 broadside of nan debate, and nary one’s really debating it, that location is nan lidar versus cameras. And Tesla’s going each successful connected cameras, saying we don’t request lidar. What astir Rivian? Does Rivian adhd lidar?

Yeah, truthful our position is that location is simply a existent use [to lidar]. Actually, I should commencement over. The position of nan entirety of nan subject organization is that having aggregate sensors is adjuvant because you build a much meticulous position of nan world. The measurement that we build these neural nets is that you want a wide knowing of nan world, and you want nan highest accuracy. And if you person much than 1 camera, you’re going to person aggregate cameras that person different signals, which person different signal-to-noise ratios that request to beryllium managed. But ultimately, nan measurement that that accusation is fused very early, if you person aggregate cameras coupled pinch radar, coupled pinch perchance lidar, arsenic you said, it gives you a much fulsome and meticulous picture. It besides allows you to train your exemplary better.

So, it’s analogous to if I had to study nan world pinch 1 eye, I would study a little meticulous type of nan world than if I had learned nan world pinch 2 eyes. And if you look astatine nan evolutionary tracks of galore type of animals, astir animals person aggregate modalities of sensing. And nan ones that person to run successful possibly nan astir utmost environments, let’s opportunity utmost darkness, mostly harvester immoderate optical cognition pinch immoderate wavelength-based perception. Often, for illustration sound waves aliases sonar, bats are an illustration of this.

Our position is that it’s decidedly beneficial, and our attack to sensors has been that we request to quickly build our instauration exemplary arsenic accelerated arsenic possible. Tesla has a batch of vehicles and has made awesome progress. We person an astonishing product. So we person much megapixels successful cameras. We person 55 megapixels successful cameras successful R1, which’ll jump to 65 megapixels successful R2. We person a really robust group of area radars and a really beautiful 3D imaging radar successful nan front. And that’s quickly building a robust instauration model, 1 that we’re going to commencement to spot these features I conscionable described play with.

So not ruling retired lidar, is what I’m hearing?

No, I wouldn’t norm retired lidar. And there’s different point I’d conscionable say, which is important to note. I deliberation a batch of nan statement astir lidar was calved retired of [autonomous vehicles] 1.0, wherever you really had a rules-based environment, wherever this thought of an early fusion aliases building of a neural nett that wasn’t there. In a rules-based environment, it was much analyzable to do immoderate of these fusion activities because nan fusion typically happened a small later. 

Now, what’s happened is that we nary longer tally nan models for illustration that. So nan models use from nan maximum magnitude of accusation connected nan beforehand of nan model. The costs of lidar utilized to beryllium tens of thousands of dollars. It’s now low, a mates of 100 bucks. So it’s a really awesome sensor that tin do things that cameras can’t.

So my past mobility comes backmost to buying aliases leasing 1 of your cars adjacent year, which is that, and this is nan interest I have, that Rivian was precocious classed past by Consumer Reports successful a study connected conveyance reliability. What are you readying to do astir that? 

That’s thing we’re perfectly focused on. The way, of course, this looks astatine immoderate of our early builds, our conveyance liability is now getting much, overmuch better. But moreover pinch that, moreover pinch nan truth that location were much work requests connected our early builds than, let’s say, different vehicles, we had nan number 1 level of customer satisfaction. I ever opportunity to our team, erstwhile we look astatine that data, ideate if our reliability gets to beryllium champion successful class, coupled pinch each nan merchandise attributes. So, that’s our goal. 

R1 has continually improved since we launched, and past R2 is simply a further measurement alteration from that pinch each nan learnings that we’ve made astir our accumulation process, accumulation quality, and reliability. It was reliable for america erstwhile we first launched because, successful our first year, we came retired number 1 connected customer satisfaction, but it was our first clip building vehicles astatine scale. So not surprisingly, we had much challenges pinch conscionable ramping up value systems to statesman with.

Well, nan bully news for you is that I knowledgeable that customer work erstwhile I had that level tire.

Yes.

So, I cognize astir that, and truthful does my four-year-old. So, it’s looking good.

RJ, convey you truthful much. I mean, I person a batch of different questions, but I’m being told I request to wrap up. They’re giving maine nan circle. 

You’re getting nan hook?

I’m getting this, yes.

Well, convey you for your time.

Thank you for your time. I really admit it.

All right, wonderful. Thanks.

Questions aliases comments astir this episode? Hit america up astatine decoder@theverge.com. We really do publication each email!